(;CA[UTF-8]US[Jan.van.der.Steen@cwi.nl]EV[45th NHK title]RO[2nd round, 1st game]RE[B+2.5]PW[Mimura Tomoyasu]WR[7 dan]PB[Kobayashi Satoru]BR[9 dan]DT[1997-09-02]PC[Japan]KM[5.5];B[pd]C[ imp NR : hi:) jansteen 3d*: Hi imp :)];W[dc];B[dq];W[qp]C[ imp NR : you will miss something, chocolate:) jansteen 3d*: This is the second round of the 45th NHK title imp NR : quick games? jansteen 3d*: This tournament is knockout, so both players won one game jansteen 3d*: Yes, 10 min each + 30 sec byo yomi imp NR : thx jansteen 3d*: sure :)];B[ce];W[dn]C[ jansteen 3d*: Next move is natural, which one? jansteen 3d*: Consider c15 as well, robert imp NR : c8? jansteen 3d*: Correct];B[cl]C[ imp NR : or perhaps e16? jansteen 3d*: c8 attacks d6 and sets up the nice follow-up on...? imp NR : e16:) jansteen 3d*: Yes, imp :) jansteen 3d*: So white's next move is also natural, where? imp NR : e16 again:) jansteen 3d*: Yes, e16 direction anyway];W[fd]C[ jansteen 3d*: Black's next again natural, where? imp NR : i see many naturals:) jansteen 3d*: How can black follow-up c8? imp NR : f4? imp NR : hi malf:) jansteen 3d*: yes, correct imp, 100 percent! jansteen 3d*: Hi malf :)];B[fp]C[ jansteen 3d*: Now what to do with d6? donjuan 2d*: hoi jansteen 3d*: Hi don Juan :) imp NR : hoi donjuan:) imp NR : I would feel to play around c11 now jansteen 3d*: c11 is positive imp NR : you are not going to tell me that w played a negative one? :) donjuan 2d*: hm my kibitz doesnt work that well jansteen 3d*: But black e7 would be hard on both c11 and d6 donjuan 2d*: hello anyway ;:) jansteen 3d*: We see your kibitz Don$)C donjuan 2d*: sure with kib but not with 4Š jansteen 3d*: Isn't kibitz a ","? imp NR : difficult to find something for d6 that is not only passive donjuan 2d*: unknown command also... jansteen 3d*: Hi David imp NR : kibitz is a " jansteen 3d*: David is a walking manual donjuan 2d*: i think d6 is light donjuan 2d*: play elsewhere?= jansteen 3d*: So what are you saying Juan, c11 around as well? jansteen 3d*: Left side is hot, but where then? donjuan 2d*: yeah something like that :=) imp NR : d12, but is that right direction now? donjuan 2d*: maybe d11 jansteen 3d*: d12 is better than c11 I think jansteen 3d*: d11 invites black e7 too much and leaves c15 with c13 for base donjuan 2d*: i miss to play go... :( jansteen 3d*: c10 same comments as d11 jansteen 3d*: I think d12 is possible imp NR : or c16 first, then d12? Might be overplay that jansteen 3d*: Ok, white decided to move with d6, how? donjuan 2d*: but e7 leaves d4 aji imp NR : problem also: if b e7, is there still life left in d6 or not? If not, than have to move d6];W[em]C[ imp NR : this invites d12 now jansteen 3d*: True imp, black d7 would leave white d6 with some life in it jansteen 3d*: But moving it would be really hard :) jansteen 3d*: This is the only reasonable way to move this stone donjuan 2d*: e8? jansteen 3d*: Why e8 Juan? donjuan 2d*: no idcea :) jansteen 3d*: Yes, you know, but pls tell us :) imp NR : locally normal, to build left side donjuan 2d*: settle upper side, and f6 peep imp NR : :) jansteen 3d*: Correct, black needs to defend against d12 jansteen 3d*: He choose another move, not touching the weak e7 group];B[ch]C[ imp NR : i feel that this is enough for b imp NR : for what that's worth:)];W[oq];B[qk];W[hq]C[ jansteen 3d*: Next black move? (direction, shape) jansteen 3d*: Hi zion imp NR : hi:) jansteen 3d*: g5 is shape because it has follow-up at j4 and seperates white's groups jansteen 3d*: Other suggestions? imp NR : c4 imp NR : but than around g5 too good for w imp NR : f6 maybe? jansteen 3d*: Yes imp, you got it];B[fn]C[ jansteen 3d*: g6 is vital point of the kosumi shape d6/e7 jansteen 3d*: It also sets up an invasion around l4 jansteen 3d*: Simple, severe, pro trademark];W[fm];B[gm];W[gn]C[ jansteen 3d*: Next? (shape, tesuji) jansteen 3d*: Yes zion! imp NR : or first h6?];B[hp]C[ donjuan 2d*: h6 or just g8? jansteen 3d*: This move has j3 and h6 follow-up];W[hn];B[iq]C[ jansteen 3d*: pls note that g8 ladder is good for black, so....];W[fo];B[gq]C[ jansteen 3d*: An exchange (furikawari) is the result donjuan 2d*: why g8 impoertant? imp NR : g8? jansteen 3d*: Because g7 was cutting stone Juan :) jansteen 3d*: So black f5 was a threat donjuan 2d*: ahhh i sea imp NR : oh, you mean miai? jansteen 3d*: Which sea? :) jansteen 3d*: right imp donjuan 2d*: probably the north sea jansteen 3d*: White to play right side, candidates? imp NR : r11 only? jansteen 3d*: is that right side zion? :) darkoasis 1k*: R6 donjuan 2d*: i would play o17 darkoasis 1k*: ooops white to play jansteen 3d*: Ok, we have four moves :) darkoasis 1k*: R11 jansteen 3d*: r11/r14, r6 and p9 donjuan 2d*: oh it is b turn darkoasis 1k*: scratch R6.... jansteen 3d*: r6 feels a bit tight imp NR : no, w to move dj:) darkoasis 1k*: I was thinking R6 for Black...not white :) jansteen 3d*: p9 gives away territory, black will answer q11 happily donjuan 2d*: oops. then i say o17 ;:) jansteen 3d*: So left are r11 and r14, which one?];W[qi]C[ darkoasis 1k*: Thanks for the suspense! :) Jan jansteen 3d*: So now two moves are obvious: either r6 or r13, which one? jansteen 3d*: oasis :) darkoasis 1k*: Black R6 imp NR : i vote r6 imp NR : but r13 seems not bad too:) jansteen 3d*: guys, we had this many times before jansteen 3d*: r6 is completely gote, defensive, uninteresting donjuan 2d*: i think r13 darkoasis 1k*: If black decides to tenuki...then J16 looks about right...but R6 is itching!! jansteen 3d*: ama-move :) imp NR : shit:) jansteen 3d*: r6 is chicken move :) darkoasis 1k*: gote or not...R6 is needed. imp NR : but BIG chicken move:)];B[qf]C[ jansteen 3d*: Pro's always defend by attacking, try it in your own games, really darkoasis 1k*: Well hush my mouth!!];W[oj]C[ jansteen 3d*: And now two options: r6 or r5, which one? imp NR : hm, surprising this darkoasis 1k*: Pros can calculate to INFINITY...if we can do that...*then* we try it!! hehe darkoasis 1k*: I don't like either option... jansteen 3d*: Not really imp, j3 is strong, so black's r9 group is ok, while white's r11 is dame point now imp NR : r6, then s4 after];B[qo]C[ darkoasis 1k*: but would choose R6 P8 here];W[po];B[qn];W[rp];B[pn];W[oo];B[ol]C[ jansteen 3d*: Sabaki manouevre darkoasis 1k*: Finally P8!! darkoasis 1k*: Very instructive, Jan. imp NR : hard for w now? jansteen 3d*: Ok, this group is ok for the time being, so shift to upper-side now jansteen 3d*: Which point on upper-side? imp NR : o17 donjuan 2d*: k17? jansteen 3d*: Two opinions: keep distance (k17) or all the way (o17), which one? darkoasis 1k*: I have no idea!! darkoasis 1k*: O17 unreasonable... imp NR : we don't have either, just guessing:) jansteen 3d*: Is white p10 group weak or strong? donjuan 2d*: maybe j17 :) darkoasis 1k*: maybe L16 imp NR : weak:( darkoasis 1k*: extremely weak!! jansteen 3d*: Yes imp, so is o17 reasonable? darkoasis 1k*: was that a trick question?!! ::grins:: imp NR : i wanted to o17 to weaken corner:) That makes p10 stronger darkoasis 1k*: White L17 and pray. jansteen 3d*: Good mentality imp, what can I say :)) jansteen 3d*: haha imp NR : maybe slightly overoptimistic:) imp NR : i prefer b now anyway darkoasis 1k*: Too optomistic...but if Jan's earlier comment is correct...];W[kc]C[ darkoasis 1k*: the pros defend by attacking!! hehe darkoasis 1k*: YES!!!!!!!! imp NR : good:) jansteen 3d*: This move protects h17, sets up o17 and helps p10 group darkoasis 1k*: Thanks. Imp! jansteen 3d*: In a position where you feel behind (and white probably is slightly) you have to play rtight jansteen 3d*: tight darkoasis 1k*: I would rather be a fake3d!! ::grins:: Go for it!! jansteen 3d*: Play tight and wait for chance, lick your wounds, and gain strength jansteen 3d*: Wait for your chance, which always comes];B[mc];W[ke]C[ imp NR : true:) darkoasis 1k*: Jan...that's what my girlfriend says...wait for your chance, which always comes!! darkoasis 1k*: hehe jansteen 3d*: Black's upper-right looks very big but actually white can still invade jansteen 3d*: Next move? (direction most important) jansteen 3d*: Think strategically jansteen 3d*: Don't worry about territory darkoasis 1k*: Black B17...Too small?! imp NR : n10? donjuan 2d*: k16 i tyhink... jansteen 3d*: b17 is huge pre-endgame move darkoasis 1k*: B17 prepares a J17 invasion. jansteen 3d*: What's the strategic idea behind n10? jansteen 3d*: Same question for k16 imp NR : keep the w center under control imp NR : f14 also, but maybe too soft? jansteen 3d*: What's the strategic idea in this position? imp NR : seems a pity not to attack r11/p10 stones though imp NR : simply p12 then? donjuan 2d*: q10 is possible, imp darkoasis 1k*: is N3 too slow for black? jansteen 3d*: n3 is very small oasis jansteen 3d*: n3 doeasn't affect the corner jansteen 3d*: Ok, I continue];B[lf]C[ darkoasis 1k*: my oasis is verys small too!! imp NR : for me, around e12 or around weak group is biggest jansteen 3d*: What's this move? Pls explain imp :) darkoasis 1k*: M14 looks like an overplay here... imp NR : separate , so attack darkoasis 1k*: no wonder these are pros!! :) jansteen 3d*: Yes, imp];W[md]C[ darkoasis 1k*: but black may loose the J17 invasion with this sequence... imp NR : but why not p12 then? darkoasis 1k*: I guess the right side is more important. imp NR : m14 difficult:) jansteen 3d*: m14 is one of those "feeling" moves imp NR : ah, ic:) darkoasis 1k*: Very difficult...I would try to lull white asleep with B17... jansteen 3d*: I don't like p12, it doesn't help UR a lot darkoasis 1k*: I know its slow...but its still painful for white to ignore! jansteen 3d*: p12 squeezes white out and leaves weaknesses behinbd donjuan 2d*: m16 then.];B[nc]C[ imp NR : true that];W[nf]C[ jansteen 3d*: White still wants to connect of course imp NR : but b needs a good one now jansteen 3d*: And black wants to seperate..., next? donjuan 2d*: m16? jansteen 3d*: Yes, o12 around is correct jansteen 3d*: Find best shape here is hard];B[og]C[ jansteen 3d*: Next move very ugly];W[pk];B[pl]C[ darkoasis 1k*: very ugly!! jansteen 3d*: very ugly];W[qg]C[ jansteen 3d*: maybe zion :)];B[pf];W[rk]C[ jansteen 3d*: This is the follow-up];B[qj];W[rj];B[pi];W[ph];B[oi];W[oh];B[ni];W[nh];B[mi]C[ darkoasis 1k*: zion...doesn't black's M14 look like an overplay?! jansteen 3d*: This flows naturally jansteen 3d*: So black entered center, white while got o12 wall, what's next? darkoasis 1k*: white B16 or there abouts. jansteen 3d*: They leave this shape, zion jansteen 3d*: What did white get in return for his losses here? imp NR : a move in UR? jansteen 3d*: c16 not urgent yet jansteen 3d*: Right imp jansteen 3d*: White plays in UR, which point? imp NR : your "wall" tipped me off:) darkoasis 1k*: my goodness...white invade at R17?!! no way!! donjuan 2d*: r17? jansteen 3d*: s16 interesting (miai of r17 and s14) jansteen 3d*: r17 traditional point jansteen 3d*: Try to use n16 darkoasis 1k*: then P17 attach... darkoasis 1k*: that keeps sente, no matter what.];W[pc]C[ jansteen 3d*: See relationship between this point and n16? darkoasis 1k*: Astounding!! Impossible!!! Must be a recording error!! ::grins:: darkoasis 1k*: Not even in my playbook!!];B[qc]C[ imp NR : yes, too difficult for me:)];W[qd]C[ darkoasis 1k*: but this probe is normal for ogeima shimari... darkoasis 1k*: but very tough to see here. jansteen 3d*: Now two moves miai: p16 and q15 imp NR : i calculated that this does not work:) jansteen 3d*: So what's black's next then imp? :) darkoasis 1k*: I vote with the Imp!! :) darkoasis 1k*: Black's next move is to call Sataka Eio!! :) imp NR : b q18, then what?];B[pb]C[ darkoasis 1k*: Sakata!! jansteen 3d*: This is the game];W[pe]C[ jansteen 3d*: And now? darkoasis 1k*: Black S16 is copeout...but *I* would play it... imp NR : ah.., problems after p17 take:) darkoasis 1k*: then connect at S18 or thereabouts. imp NR : if we could learn this zion:)];B[oc]C[ darkoasis 1k*: should white tenuki now...and get in B16 or C16? imp NR : if only we could learn this:( imp NR : r15 now? darkoasis 1k*: black is going to invade at J17 next... darkoasis 1k*: white might as well get some profit in the upper left corner first. imp NR : jan has net trouble? imp NR : yes darkoasis 1k*: I think so...yes to both. imp NR : :) darkoasis 1k*: C16 or B16 for white...has to be huge by now!! imp NR : are there other proposals? darkoasis 1k*: Another proposal is a kikashi at C4 for white. imp NR : but s14 for w seems not enough now? darkoasis 1k*: Jan is trapped in GO Heaven. :) imp NR : ok darkoasis 1k*: Okay zion imp NR : after r15-r14, p15-o13, a semeai occurs that w must be able to win, otherwise r15 no good];W[qe]C[ imp NR : seems c4, then c16 huge jansteen 3d*: I had a netlag, sorry :( jansteen 3d*: And another one :(];B[rg]C[ jansteen 3d*: I suffer some serious netlagging, sorry];W[rh];B[re];W[sg];B[rf]C[ CWine 2d : You will just have to answer questions a few seconds before we ask them. :) darkoasis 1k*: Netlag...but Jan is continuing now :) jansteen 3d*: Now white plays the move we've all being waiting for, which one? darkoasis 1k*: white B16!! jansteen 3d*: thanks Zorro :)];W[cd];B[de];W[hd]C[ imp NR : not c4 first?];B[mh];W[ng];B[co];W[cn];B[bn]C[ jansteen 3d*: Black protects his lower-left corner jansteen 3d*: And white saves his q16 stones...];W[oe];B[rd]C[ imp NR : would not have w c4 helped a bit?];W[lk]C[ jansteen 3d*: Kikashi];B[ld]C[ imp NR : what is m9 for jan? darkoasis 1k*: White C4 is *almost* sente...black would probably ignore it. imp NR : can't believe that dark, c3 next too big for w darkoasis 1k*: I agree...awfully big... darkoasis 1k*: but these are pros... darkoasis 1k*: black would ignore it. imp NR : jan has bad trouble with connection imp NR : too many questions yes:) darkoasis 1k*: chuckles:: Thanks, zion! imp NR : you seem to be strongest around now ziion: can you explain m9? imp NR : m16 attacks w group, not completely alive yet. Treatens s8 imp NR : maybe:) darkoasis 1k*: my guess is...M9 assists the F7 group, while preventing black from stretching out too much. darkoasis 1k*: zion...when white played M9... darkoasis 1k*: give us some comments on that. krugman 5k*: seems w about 50 secure; b 35-40 secure plus whatever left side; who has more scope to expand?? CWine 2d : What is going on here? Everything safe, unless W can unsettle left side. darkoasis 1k*: ::nods:: if white M9 is not present...how black play in this area? darkoasis 1k*: Lets assume previous play on the *outer fringes* away from the center." darkoasis 1k*: In other words...black would aim at pulling the G7 stone out, if white tenuki's too long? imp NR : seems b a bit ahead, but white got back a bit i think imp NR : upper, LR, krugman 5k*: left side not terr yet imp NR : think so yes krugman 5k*: can w press down left side and develop center with m9 holding right flank?? imp NR : i propose to stop now, and to wait till jan comes back. zli 7k*: you guys can watch 70 now imp NR : He seems to have bad net trouble (already 11 m time out) imp NR : cu back soon:) imp NR : cu malf:) darkoasis 1k*: welcome back, Jan :) jansteen 3d*: My network is very unstable tonight it seems jansteen 3d*: thanks :) jansteen 3d*: So I will speed up this game to ensure we finish it imp NR : digging in the neighbourhood:) jansteen 3d*: White played kikashi with m9, and black responded kikashi at m16 darkoasis 1k*: White M15 was the consensus.];W[le];B[me];W[mf];B[ml]C[ jansteen 3d*: Basically, now endgame started: all groups stable];W[dp];B[cp];W[bm];B[bo];W[cj];B[bl];W[be];B[bf];W[bd];B[kd];W[jd];B[nd];W[lc];B[md];W[je]C[ darkoasis 1k*: Jan...pause here for a sec. imp NR : s8 huge? jansteen 3d*: For kyu players: what happens when black cuts at k17? jansteen 3d*: oasis, question? imp NR : for those that did not watch Yasuda-Guo game:) darkoasis 1k*: White ataries under at K18...will continue with J18 if black tries to pull out. darkoasis 1k*: My other observation was... jansteen 3d*: Good oasis, correct imp NR : oh no, jansteen-hobo game that was? darkoasis 1k*: isn't it interesting...that neither white plays L3 or black plays N3 here... darkoasis 1k*: a brief comment on those moves which seem big...but or not. jansteen 3d*: That part of the board is very "hard" oasis, so moves there are small jansteen 3d*: Since the positions are hard, a move their doesn't affect the situation a lot jansteen 3d*: their = there darkoasis 1k*: ::nods:: if either side plays there... a fight will ensure... darkoasis 1k*: that doesn't gain much for either side? darkoasis 1k*: Okay...ready to continue. :) jansteen 3d*: If white plays k3 it doesn't affect j3, if black plays n3 it doesn't affect p3 imp NR : more like: only points, no follow-up action imp NR : but big enough to be played soon i guess darkoasis 1k*: Gotcha :) Thanks :) jansteen 3d*: So only profit is 10 points in gote, right imp jansteen 3d*: Maybe 20 points, but limited, compared to other placves];B[fe];W[ge];B[dk];W[di];B[ff]C[ jansteen 3d*: Black creating this weak group is interesting jansteen 3d*: weak group is d11 of course];W[dh];B[cg];W[fh]C[ jansteen 3d*: Next move? imp NR : m13? jansteen 3d*: Yes, zion, good!];B[bj]C[ darkoasis 1k*: Safety move is B10...but pro won't play that. darkoasis 1k*: LOL!! jansteen 3d*: Why not oasis? :) Points, safety, what else do you want? :) imp NR : completely forgot that that group was weak:( darkoasis 1k*: I thought pro must push at G14];W[ek]C[ darkoasis 1k*: Okay Jan and Zion...comments well taken :) jansteen 3d*: oasis, where next? jansteen 3d*: imp, zion and malf know me, so they know where next move is, right? :) imp NR : right:) darkoasis 1k*: I want to clamp at F9...but it doesn't seem to work jansteen 3d*: oasis? jansteen 3d*: Left side fight is finished for the moment jansteen 3d*: Endgame continues imp NR : why only you oasis, why not we all? :) darkoasis 1k*: then eitehr N3 or O2 jansteen 3d*: ok, all];B[lq]C[ jansteen 3d*: good :)];W[ql];B[pj]C[ darkoasis 1k*: sheesh!! I went too far!!];W[mr]C[ jansteen 3d*: Yes, n3 leaves weakness at l3];B[mq];W[lr];B[kr];W[nr];B[jk];W[ll];B[jm];W[ln];B[mm];W[lm]C[ imp NR : they play fighting endgame:)];B[hm]C[ jansteen 3d*: yes, typical for NHK tournament :) jansteen 3d*: No time to count, so sharp till the end :) darkoasis 1k*: I am waiting for black to use F9 clamp!!];W[jn];B[jc]C[ jansteen 3d*: Next?];W[jb]C[ darkoasis 1k*: Must be J17 due to some threats around K17...];B[ic]C[ darkoasis 1k*: otherwise. K18 works jansteen 3d*: I don't trust network, have to hurry];W[ib];B[rl];W[lg];B[kh];W[ih];B[hi];W[dj];B[bk]C[ darkoasis 1k*: so much for the clamp! :)];W[hk];B[gk];W[hj];B[gj];W[ii];B[gh];W[fi];B[gi]C[ darkoasis 1k*: tough fighting here];W[jj];B[gg];W[in];B[mb];W[ka];B[lb];W[kb];B[fl]C[ darkoasis 1k*: H8 now?];W[el]C[ darkoasis 1k*: okay...black keeps sente.];B[im];W[do];B[ep];W[lh];B[li];W[ki];B[kj];W[ji];B[hc];W[id];B[ik];W[cm];B[ed];W[ec];B[ij];W[hg];B[am];W[ci];B[bi];W[jp];B[jq];W[kp];B[kq];W[gf];B[fg];W[lj];B[qm];W[ro];B[kk];W[dg];B[sf]C[ jansteen 3d*: While I'm looking for the moves, you can use time to count :) jansteen 3d*: Hint: it's close darkoasis 1k*: Okay];W[dd];B[df];W[sh];B[fj];W[ej];B[eh];W[ei];B[eg];W[rn];B[eo];W[en];B[dl];W[mn];B[nn];W[no];B[on];W[ip]C[ imp NR : too close to guess:)];B[hr];W[ho];B[lp];W[lo];B[np];W[km];B[op];W[pp];B[nq];W[or];B[rm];W[od];B[pc];W[ee];B[hb];W[gc];B[mk];W[ks];B[js];W[ls];B[ae];W[ad];B[af];W[jl];B[il];W[kl];B[la];W[gb];B[mg];W[kf];B[pg];W[qh];B[hh];W[ig];B[mj];W[sk];B[fk]C[ darkoasis 1k*: both sides close to 74 points... darkoasis 1k*: its a half point swing either way. imp NR : b wins, by +0.5?];W[sn]C[ Max 2d*: excuse me, what is this game?];B[gp];W[mo]C[ jansteen 3d*: Finished jansteen 3d*: Any guesses about endscore? imp NR : b +0.5 jansteen 3d*: Max: 45th NHK, 2nd rnd, 1st gm: Kobayashi Satoru (9p,B) vs Mimura Tomoyasu (7p,W) jrl 1k*: b +1.5 jansteen 3d*: Black wins, correct jansteen 3d*: jrl, close jansteen 3d*: B+2.5 darkoasis 1k*: Thanks, Jan :) jansteen 3d*: Interesting game, most pro games interesting :) imp NR : yes, thx jan:) jansteen 3d*: Thank you all imp NR : and to discuss jansteen 3d*: yes, very nice jansteen 3d*: Next game will be 4th Gosei title match game jrl 1k*: The commentary was great - adds value to game! Max 2d*: thx, jansteen jansteen 3d*: Thanks jrl jansteen 3d*: Also on behalf of the other kibitzers of course jansteen 3d*: right zion, I think so jansteen 3d*: By the way, anyone has an idea why white fell behind in this game? imp NR : bye and thx all Max 2d*: fell behind in yose? imp NR : i think because of p10 darkoasis 1k*: Yes...the Q17 maneuver.... darkoasis 1k*: it was played a bit too soon. jansteen 3d*: CLose imp! jansteen 3d*: Was r11 correct? imp NR : after that action there, w was behind jansteen 3d*: right imp NR : i voted for r11 jan! :) jansteen 3d*: Yes imp :) But was it correct? imp NR : sure:) jansteen 3d*: Right zion, what then? darkoasis 1k*: R11 can't be wrong... darkoasis 1k*: the maneuvers in the upper right corner could have waited... jansteen 3d*: Yes, r11 direction is good, but point was wrong darkoasis 1k*: white needed to take care of the upper left first. imp NR : but w should have got r7-direction? jansteen 3d*: no oasis, r11 direction was correct jansteen 3d*: right, r14 was correct darkoasis 1k*: I agree with R11...I am saying... darkoasis 1k*: that after that...the Q17 attach in the corner was not timed right. imp NR : :( so zion was right after all:) darkoasis 1k*: it could have waited a bit longer. jansteen 3d*: r14, black answers in corner and then white r11 jansteen 3d*: Yes, zion was right after all :) jansteen 3d*: imp plays as strong as Mimura, zion as Kobayashi :) Max 2d*: wow, such an early usually doesn't make any difference in my games in 1000 years imp NR : :) jansteen 3d*: Such a basic position, and even pro's can go wrong, very interesting imp NR : ok, bedtime here imp NR : bye all:) jansteen 3d*: It shows that no move in Go is for "free", always have to think a moment :) jansteen 3d*: Me too, too late, bye all jansteen 3d*: sure, welcome darkoasis 1k*: Take care :) jansteen 3d*: :)];)